Where did enmity against God begin? A conversation...

Originator:  Where did enmity against God begin?

Romans 8:7 KJV
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

First Person: In the garden?

Second Person: The garden?

Third Person: The 1st Adams mind and maybe will?

Fourth Person: When Adam sinned.

Fifth Person:  Adam willingly disobeyed God having been created with the fullness of the Holy Ghost and the ability to choose. Adam and Eve chose enmity against God.

Sixth Person:  It started when God said "Thou shalt not".

 Fourth Person:  I kind of differ on that thought Sixth Person. I believe Adam still had choice to keep his will subject to Gods. Just as Jesus kept his will subject to his fathers. If we walk in the spirit we will not fulfill the lust of the flesh. As long as I walk in the spirit I am keeping my will/nature/carnal mind subject to God. But if I live in the flesh then indeed my carnal mind is not subject to God.

Seventh Person: I "think" I understand the intent of your question.  However, in the verse you used (Rom. 8:7) the context is not referring to "the garden". It may have parallels, but in this particular verse, the BEGINNING of this "carnality", is when I use my "carnal" mind to believe I can be justified (made righteous) by the works of the law. I believe, when I read the 6th, 7th, and 8th chapters together, it becomes "apparent" to me that this is the context of this scripture.  Notwithstanding, I also believe, the only way I am to understand what happened in the garden, is if I can understand the same principle in myself. Without this acknowledgement of what is in me, that was the same as in Adam, I will never know the principles of truth, about the garden. I think Sixth Person’s  post about "when" it began, deserves consideration. For without the commandment, their was nothing for Adam "to choose" that would be "enmity" against God. The phrase, "free choice", of necessity demand further explanation. So in order for me to "know" this great truth, it is the same as with all other pertinent knowledge; I must understand it within myself. So I would ask, "WHEN" does it begin in me?

Fifth Person:   I agree that it started when God challenged Adam to obey leaving Adam in the valley of decision. We don't know how long Adam existed before his decision to disobey God but I'm certain it was longer than we think.  It has already begun.

Sixth Person: to Fourth Person: We do not disagree. My point was prior to God saying "Thou shalt not" there was no temptation for Adam/Eve to disobey. Paul said "I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived (came alive), and I died”.  Of course Adam/Eve had a choice, but not until the "commandment came", which took place when God said "Thou shalt not”. 

Originator:  It seems the enmity in us is totally against life itself like as if we self destruct.

Third Person:   Did they actually have free will, or was their will tied to their flesh?  And the commandment was the revelation of this.

Fourth Person to Sixth Person:  agreed, free will came when the commandment came. But I don't think that as soon as the commandment came that they yielded.  If my parents tell me not to get in the cookie jar, and for 10 minutes I don't. Then for those 10 minutes I was not against the law of my parents. But after 10 minutes I stick my hand in the jar...now I have gone against and my will is against my parents.

Fifth Person:  With Adam time wasn't an issue so it could have been a very long time before Adam chose to transgress. No doubt it was.

Eight Person: We have no knowledge of the time involved between the commandment given and the commission of sin between Adam and eve; not to my knowledge anyway.

Seventh Person:   Maybe time was not in existence. Could it be that God created time, so that man might be saved. If we had to exist in eternity with our sinful nature, God would have to annihilate us. So how long before he sinned? It cannot be measured, because there was no time.

Sixth Person:  Time began with the creation of Adam, Gen. 5.  I should have said, Bible Chronology (time) began with the creation of Adam, not with the creation of the world, Gen. 5.

Seventh Person:  Could there be a difference between time and Chronology? There will come "time", when time will be no more. I believe, that time was God's way of saving mankind.

Sixth Person:  The beauty of bible-chronology is that it begins with the creation of man and ends with the crucifixion of Christ.  I agree with your statement Garland, but here does it say 'time will be no more', I just looked and can't find it?

Ninth Person:  Rev. 10:6; says this; And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there (should be time no longer:)  Other translations state, "there shall be no more delay."

Fifth Person:  Time is just a fragment of eternity given to mankind for the purpose of salvation.

Tenth Person to Originator:   I believe enmity against God began with Adam in the garden . He wanted to be God, are like God.

Eleventh Person: Adam pleased His wife.  Adam had no inclinations toward being God, that's ludicrous.   Enmity began for Mankind in the Garden, enmity truly began in Heaven by Satan.

Your Father the Devil is a Concept

Your Father the Devil is a Concept

John 8:43 KJV
Why do ye not understand my speech (Meaning or concept)? even because ye cannot hear (understand the meaning of) my word.
John 8:44 KJV
Ye are of your father the devil (you think like the originator of disbelief), and the lusts (concepts) of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth (God’s will), because there is no truth (Godly obedience) in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own (understanding): for he is a liar, and the father of it (Disobedience).
John 8:45 KJV
And because I tell you the truth (and you abide not in Gods will), ye believe me not.

This is an illustrated interpretation of Jesus’ teachings about the thoughts and actions of the Jews. It is a description of their behavior, not a genetic affirmation. Jesus referred to the people he was speaking to as “children of the original oppositional defiant creation of God, the creator of lies, the Serpent.” 

This concept is substantiated in Matthew 8:44 when Jesus referred to the devil as the father of “it.” “It” here refers to the concept of a lie, not to the genetic entity of humans. 

This lie was the root cause of Eve’s beguiling, which ultimately led Adam to agree to please his wife and to God’s curse of death. The serpent was also included in this curse.

The devil was cursed for disobedience during the curse in the garden, and this is mentioned in ;

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared (because the devil was cursed also) for the devil and his angels: it was prepared for him long before the end of the world. It is likewise spoken of in Revelation 20:10.  Incidentally, Revelation 20:10 is also talking about liars.      

Revelation 20:10 KJV And the devil that deceived them (Eve and all those after her that believed His lies) was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

He, the devil, was a murderer because he killed God’s influence over Eve. Satan murdered Eve by deceiving Eve with the lie, “You shall not surely die.” He believed he didn’t need to obey God and rejected the truth. He convinced himself of his delusion. Satan committed suicide when he chose to follow his own will. 

Thessalonians 2:9-12 (KJV)
Even him (another deceiver who claims to be God), whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth (the Serpent did not receive the truth) that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion (God allowed this delusion through Satan's mind because God gave Angels free choice or the ability to have their own thoughts as mankind), that they should believe a lie:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

The above scripture holds true even for Satan. Satan, the originator of lies, conceived a lie, believed it, and is consequently damned to the Lake of Fire.

In conclusion, the concept or metaphor of Satan as the father of sin holds profound significance. It illustrates the idea that all sinners are metaphorically children of Satan. This concept serves as a visual representation of the inescapable choice between serving two masters and claiming to be children of both. It emphasizes that one must either serve God and become his child or serve Satan and become his child. Ultimately, we possess the freedom to choose which path we desire. May our choice be to God and eternal life. Lord, protect us under your divine shelter.

Written by: Charles E. Cohenour Jr.

If thou faint in the day of adversity,
Thy strength is small.

Do we need an Antagonist?

Do we require an antagonist to motivate us to perform well or poorly? Before Eve’s introduction, Adam never consumed from the Tree of Good and Evil. The Tree of Life existed in the Garden before Eve, as did the Tree of Good and Evil. If the carnal mind is synonymous with Satan, why didn’t Adam heed his own instincts before Eve’s arrival?

Adam, before Eve’s creation, had made a decision not to listen to the serpent. He was determined to be exactly what God had planned for him and was diligently fulfilling God’s instructions, taking care of the garden and naming the animals. Therefore, it seems that Adam’s disobedience was not directed at the serpent but rather at his own choice to deviate from God’s plan.  

God walked with Adam in the garden, keeping him company. God had placed a hedge around Adam, a commandment not to eat from the tree. God believed Adam needed to be tested to prove his love for Him. Additionally, God recognized that it was not healthy for humans to undergo trials alone. Therefore, God created Eve, and Adam encountered his true adversary, his test.

The Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil transformed into the serpent, which later became the dragon, possessing the power to deceive Eve. Adam was aware of this, yet he prioritized pleasing Eve over God. Eve had disregarded Adam and God’s advice and turned her attention to the serpent and her own worries. Adam was determined to regain Eve’s attention at any expense, even if it meant sacrificing his own life.

Adam’s desire wasn’t to gain power or eternal life. Instead, he yearned to restore favor and acceptance with Eve. To fulfill this desire, Adam crafted Eve’s garments from leaves, making her appear divine when she expressed her aspiration to be like a god.  

The disobedience wasn’t that Adam sought to be worshipped as a deity; it was that he worshipped Eve as one. When Adam willingly heeded Eve’s words, he sought to please her by acknowledging her newfound wisdom. Consequently, he began to worship her. Eve became Adam’s true companion, and he elevated her above God’s dominion over him. Adam replaced God with a new deity, and this new god was none other than Eve.

Adam, influenced by the Serpent’s words, convinced Eve that it was acceptable to be like God. He willingly prioritized pleasing Eve over God. When confronted by God about his disobedience, Adam’s actions further solidified his desire to replace God with Eve.

Adam’s Tree of Good and Evil was actually Eve. 

Genesis 3:17 (KJV) And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

In conclusion, Adam blamed God for creating Eve, his antagonist. He shifted the blame from himself to Eve and then directly back to God. Consequently, he and Eve were punished, along with their offspring. The example of Adam illustrates that God desires us to demonstrate our worth through conflict. We require an adversary, and the world’s lust and Satan will serve as our opponents or provide one. Adhering to this pursuit of an antagonist leads us away from the sole and true God and Savior, Jesus Christ.  As Christians, we must identify our antagonists and entrust them to God. 

Written by: Charles E. Cohenour Jr.

If thou faint in the day of adversity,
Thy strength is small.